Creating Workplaces Where Everyone Can Thrive

Ashley: Hello and welcome to Health and Safety to Go, a podcast from the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety. While the rights of 2SLGBTQI people in Canada are legally protected, many face multiple forms of discrimination in their daily lives, including at work and while seeking employment. To better understand the specific challenges faced by Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary workers, Egale Canada commissioned a study called Working For Change. Here to discuss the findings with us is one of the authors of that study, Dan Irving, who sits on Egale Canada's board and is an associate professor at Carleton University. Dan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dan: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Ashley: So, tell us about Egale Canada's work for our listeners who might not be familiar with it.

Dan: Sure. So, Egale Canada has been a long-standing organization in Canada. It's the leading organization for 2SLGBTIQ issues. We mainly do rights and equality advocacy, both in Canada and globally. There's three branches to the organization, a lot of research – and that research is community-driven research. So, there's research on inclusive school, on aging, on health care, on education, intersex rights, and of course Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary employment. We do education and awareness campaigns. Right now, there – I'm not sure what channels your listeners watch – but there are commercials for the Hate Is Not History campaign. And we also do legal advocacy, so a lot of litigation and advancing legal reform. One of the major areas right now is anti 2SLGBTIQ hate.

Ashley: Well, thank you for that introduction. Dan, what did Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people have to share about how they experience the workplace in the report?

Dan: So, before I go into the workplace, I want to talk about job seeking because let's assume that Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people are seeking entry into the workplace. So, a lot of our participants pulled it back a bit. And what they were experiencing as job seekers was a tremendous pressure to, quote unquote, “manage their identities.” So, everyone that applies for a job has to brand themselves as employable. And so we often think about that in terms of the skills that are on our CVs, or our resumes and our cover letter. But it has a lot to do with the ways that we look, the way that we sound and how we behave. And so even preparing one’s resume, we had participants talking about the need to manage or hide their identity. There were gaps often in the CV. They didn't want to mention volunteering with 2SLGBTIQ organizations, or they didn't want to say that they worked at a particular place or that, you know, coming out of high school that they were part of gay-straight alliances. They didn't know what pronouns to use on their paperwork when applying. We did two forms of research. We did an online survey with 555 people that responded, and we did interviews with 79. And in the survey with 555 people, 409 participants – that’s 74 per cent – said they had to hide or minimalize their identity when applying for a job. So that's huge, and that phenomenon continues in the workplace as well. Also, the mental stress in terms of doing that hiding and going through that interview process or that job application process and, of course, when we talk about Two Spirit participants, that hiding also had to do with indigeneity if that was possible for them to do that. And if it wasn't, how were they going to manage that in the wake of anti-indigenous racism that defines our settler colonialist society? And so, these were huge issues when we get in the workplace, then we have again this notion of management of identity. Do to Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people come out at work?

Ashley: Right.

Dan: And how do they manage that if they do? And so, for example, this is incredibly important for nonbinary people. Sometimes workers have enough education to kind of understand trans and pronouns that get attached, and what have you, but not necessarily nonbinary. And so an example of managing that identity, we had one participant say that they use their pronouns as safety labels. So, they would identify as nonbinary and used “they” and “them.” But in the workplace, they tell everyone that there are a trans man – “just use he and him.” Others talked about delaying their transition because they had this huge decision to make – we call it closeted communication where many trans people would identify that way. But do they want to undergo social, legal or medical transition when it would mean harassment on the job, discrimination on the job, and the possibility of termination? And if a lot of participants talked about the stress of losing a job, knowing that they probably wouldn't get another one if they presented as gender non-conforming.

Ashley: So many layers.

Dan: Yeah, so many layers. And so mental health becomes a huge issue, too, in terms of like how do we talk about this? How do we manage this? Other issues when we talk about discrimination or harassment, one of the ways that that manifests, is through misgendering. A lot of our participants said that misgendering isn't a mistake, like once or twice, you know, it's an intentional and repetitive misgendering. And it's interesting that a lot of interview participants really emphasized that they weren't being sensitive, that because, often trans people, that's what the dismissal is. “You’re being too sensitive. I didn't mean it.” And it wasn't a mistake. It was the perpetual and intentional misgendering that was an issue. This can also manifest in refusing to use a chosen name. Refusing to use preferred pronouns. And this can be done by managers, supervisors on the floor, co-workers and customers as well clients. Other issues had to do with access to washrooms. A lot of Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary workers will be told that they have to go to a washroom on a different floor. And often it’s ridiculous, you know, elevator rides down 12 floors or going to another building. And not only is this degrading, this impacts job performance and job performance reviews because it's time away from your actual job.

Ashley: Right.  

Dan: So, it presents an increasing vulnerability for Two Spirt, trans and nonbinary workers because they are seen as less productive or unproductive. And, as I was mentioning, in terms of the mental health factor, a lot of participants talked about the emotional energy that it takes to deal with those particular kinds of issues. Couple more things. Harassment and discrimination can take the forms of physical violence. It can take the forms of intimidation and stalking. It can be sexual assault and sexual harassment and verbal abuse. And we did have participants who talked about all of those. Particularly, again, amongst feminine identifying Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people, particularly with sexual harassment and sexual violence. Workplace culture also plays a big part in this. So, when we did our research, we looked at Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary workers across the country, but we didn't look sector specific. What that workplace culture would look like in the trades, or in the culinary industry, would be different than it would if somebody was working in the public service. And so, we would have to splice the experiences a bit differently. But often the discrimination isn't this form of blatant violence. And so, we talk a lot about microaggressions in the workplace literature – either conscious or unconscious everyday interactions that tells somebody on the margins that they don't belong. And so microaggressions was formed to talk about the discrimination against black workers but has been taken up by scholars that are looking at other populations – not saying that black people can't be trans and nonbinary, they can. And in terms of microaggression – I talked about the use of pronouns already – there were things like inappropriate comments and questions. So, asking about somebody's gender identity expressions on the job. Also, in terms of Two Spirt people, really inappropriate questions around culture, racist comments that are being made that may be a little more subtle than overt racism, and then we have things like not being credited for ideas that come up in meetings. So, a lot of participants were saying like, “Wow, you know, I said something and I was completely ignored and then my colleague said it and the manager was on it and they got credit,” or being excluded from workplace communications. So again, working on a project but not being part of an email chain communicating about that specific project and so that's huge, right?

Ashley: Yeah, of course.

Dan: And then there's also the social aspect of that. So often not being invited to social events that co-workers have. And yes, I mean, everyone has the right to socialize outside of work, but if it's a workplace function and we're finding marginal workers not invited, that is a problem. And that is something that they raised. Also, the way that workplace performances are done – and it could be unintentional – there’s an evaluation of one's gender performance when evaluating one's job performance. And so, there's a lot of unspoken feelings around the ways that visible or audible or behavioural gender diversity can cause disruption within the workplace. Whether that's distraction and agitation of co-workers, and again a manager will have to deal with it, because we're there to do a job, not to be distracted by who's doing what in terms of their personal life, but that comes into it. And so, it can often be scapegoated on somebody, say transitioning at work, that they're too disruptive – like you're a hassle. And we would have participants often talking about themselves that way and relating to a manager’s dilemma by saying, you know. “It's very disruptive.” “I'm a hassle.” “You're not a good fit,” would be another one. And so yeah, if we want to talk theory when analyzing the data – and a part of what I do in my work at the university is analyze it through affective theory and feminist political economy – and so workers. in our post-industrial economy are not only called upon to do a service or produce something, we’re called upon to produce feelings, and produce positive feelings. And so, this understanding that for clients and customers, for example, you need to produce a feeling of satisfaction, or security or happiness.

Ashley: Yeah, projecting a community and the organization.

Dan: Exactly. And so, if you have somebody that looks, acts or even sounds – and the case of voice – and if they look quote-unquote, you know, “abnormal” or “non-conforming” what level of agitation will this cause? And so that often can seep into job performance where, you know, Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary workers would be seen as not as capable of doing their job. And so, then we have risks of either underemployment or we have risks of unemployment altogether. So those are some of the issues.

Ashley: Yeah, we're just scratching the surface. And there's so much to unpack there. Even just thinking about the stresses for a cisgender person of applying for a job and how that affects your livelihood and the layers in the stress and the mental health implications. Thank you. Thank you for that, Dan. So, let's talk a little bit about how workplaces can create a safer experience for Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people. What can they do to create a workplace where workers can thrive?

Dan: So, on the management or employer side of that, obviously, there are policies in place that would be non-discriminatory

Ashley: Human rights, yeah.

Dan: Human rights policies – update these policies. So, make sure that they're updated so that they include hiring and onboarding practices as well that encourage a safer environment. So, we know that nothing can be completely safe but a safer environment for Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary applicants and employees – make sure that these policies have very strong anti-racist language, anti-oppression language and also very trans-affirming practices put in there. So, that we are addressing issues of names. We are addressing issue of pronouns and that these policies aren't just a PDF in a folder somewhere, that these are very accessible to all workers who are in the organization. And that the policies are – and a lot of our participants talked about this – implemented. So, it's not just enough to have it. It's how is that manifesting every day? Obviously, one of the ways that employers can help is to hire Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary employees and retain them. And not just hire at an entry level position but have access to promotion, have access to being able to hire at all levels of, you know, one's business or organization. There's going to be times when harassment, discrimination, microaggressions come up. Have an established system of accountability.

Ashley: Right.

Dan: How are you going to communicate about that? How are we going to resolve that issue? And make sure that that's also widely known. Have mentorship and coaching programs that again are trans-affirming. And also in terms of the intersection with people's lives, you know, reproductive labour, disabilities, flexible working hours, is also a way to create an inclusive environment so that people, you know, don't have to constantly be juggling full-time work, elder care, childcare, caring for the sick. Transition is a full-time job, so you need time to do that. And also participants with mental health and disabilities talked about the ways that our work is so hard on our bodies. In terms of workers themselves, a lot of it has to do with commitment to education, to be able to not rely on Two Spirit, trans and nonbinary people to do that education work for you, but to seek it out yourself. And that includes: What are the calls to action by The Truth and Reconciliation Commission? You know, what does anti-racism look like? Also being able to have honest, self-reflective conversations with yourself. If somebody that you know is trans, if that makes you scared, anxious, angry, why? And so not just denying it, not saying, “No, I'm a good person, that's not true,” if it does, OK, why is that? And if you could sit with that and be able to understand it a little better and then seek out education around that because there's a lot of sources that are readily available. Just respect pronouns, names, gender. If you get it wrong, apologize really quickly and then move on. You know, a lot of people think they need to go back to their desk and write like a huge apology letter. Don't, no. It can actually make us more uncomfortable. Just yeah. Keep going.

Ashley: Apologize. Try. Learn for next time.

Dan: Exactly. And be an ally. Stand up for others. If you hear something or, you know, don't be afraid to have difficult conversations. And it’s interesting because one of the things I like about the research – and you had kind of given me an entry point earlier when you were talking about cis workers – our research has a lot of specificity in terms of Two Spirit, trans and non-binary people. But it also has a lot of commonalities with cis people who are people of colour, cis people who have disabilities, women, you know. And that’s important for coalitional work. Nobody is singled out for oppression. Employment discrimination does have a particularity to it but, across the board, you know, workers are exploited and, you know, workers need to fight for particular benefits and rights in common. And we also can get together across our differences so that we're not ignoring those differences. Those differences are important in terms of specificity of oppression, but the workplace can include these multiple struggles. And, you know, again an injury to one is an injury to all. So, we need to cultivate that solidarity.

Ashley: That makes sense. Obviously, a lot to discuss on this topic.

Dan: Yeah, but thank you so much for having me on and for highlighting the project. That's the way we get things done and we get the word out there. So, I really appreciate it – thank you.

Ashley: Dan Irving, thank you so much for being our guest today. To learn more about workplace health and safety issues, you can visit our website: ccohs.ca. Thanks for listening and stay safe out there.